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自闭症,ABA和RDI

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121#
发表于 2009-9-29 02:09:51 | 只看该作者

re:有个问题:很多疾病的分类都很细,但是ZB...

有个问题:很多疾病的分类都很细,但是ZB就一个高、低功能的分类,总觉得太简单。
各位高人其实在实践中都有提到:1发语音的出现和认识一些基本概念,机体活动能力增加 2代词的使用好转,语言的加长 3注意力和执行力的提高 4社交技巧的练习。
觉得似乎可以按照实际年龄和心理年龄细分。
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122#
发表于 2009-9-29 02:13:23 | 只看该作者

re:所谓自闭训练,是机构,专家研究的事情。...

所谓自闭训练,是机构,专家研究的事情。 很少专家像家长一样,会去关心孩子的综合成长和心理健康。

社交技能ABA,在中国,就很有可能发展为某种吃钱的机构。 不能说这种训练没用,就是因为这种训练太有用了,ABA一上,打招呼,回应,再见,全都会了,家长高兴,机构高兴,孩子其实重要的东西没学到。

关于社交,我认同T版在方老师地里的一系列观点,技巧不是主要的,人本身是主要的。

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123#
发表于 2009-9-29 02:16:15 | 只看该作者

re:这是一个parenting的问题了, 相...

这是一个parenting的问题了, 相信大多数家长要求的融入是达到可被接纳的最低要求,如果现今还不为社会接纳, 那一些表面上的措施是需要的。 当然家长还可以着手影响环境。

下面引用由燕原发表的内容:

所以说,家长的态度特别重要。

强迫孩子融入的,特别是强迫孩子面子上要融入的,是很危险的想法,特别是对高功能和AS的孩子来说。

社交技能ABA,在大多数人手里运作起来,就是这个面子上融入的结...

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124#
发表于 2009-9-29 02:20:32 | 只看该作者

re:多处提到的学习能力,能否能理解为“自学”...

多处提到的学习能力,能否能理解为“自学”能力。即孩子能领会外界的各种刺激,(包括他人教的知识、语言、身体语言、情绪等),意识到对自身的影响,从而产生调整,以适应自身及外界的一种能力。
在社交训练有一定的基础后,就要培养学习能力了。
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125#
发表于 2009-9-29 02:27:58 | 只看该作者

re:也许一打招呼, 收到回应才知道打招呼原来...

也许一打招呼, 收到回应才知道打招呼原来也可以是一件愉悦的事呢。燕原, 我不是跟你抬杠啊,我只是觉得如果一直是被迫学, 孩子是很难做到泛化的, 如果孩子自己会泛化,说明可以被动变主动。习惯成自然,这个自然也许就是发自内心也说不定。

下面引用由燕原发表的内容:

所谓自闭训练,是机构,专家研究的事情。 很少专家像家长一样,会去关心孩子的综合成长和心理健康。

社交技能ABA,在中国,就很有可能发展为某种吃钱的机构。 不能说这种训练没用,就是因为这种训练太有...

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126#
发表于 2009-9-29 02:28:21 | 只看该作者

re:家长的态度中,不认可的一个词:“训练”。...

家长的态度中,不认可的一个词:“训练”。
因为影响是相互的。家长和孩子的关系也是一样。训练一词,感觉是高高在上。
孩子是给予人间的礼物,不是私有财产,父母是监护人,职责是使孩子健康、快乐成长,不单单是躯体和学习成绩。
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127#
发表于 2009-9-29 02:28:22 | 只看该作者

re:"礼貌是另一回事,教大都礼貌非常容易...


"礼貌是另一回事,教大都礼貌非常容易,就那么基本的几条,两个月就好了,而且严格遵守。"这个有涉及到高功能自闭症和AS的差别,有差别吗,有,Ean妈妈不是说根本就是两码事吗? 我也越来越觉得太不一样了,怎么我家的礼貌就那么难学呢?所以大都肯定不用那个版本的社交ABA了,可是对我家的太需要了。其实在学校也就是这个。妞妞的社交IEP就是要学会问候,再见,“我能和你玩吗?”,整个一年的目标就是这些。这些都会说,但是从来不“泛化”到学校中,而且她心里是喜欢和别人再见问候,是想和人玩的。
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128#
发表于 2009-9-29 02:31:26 | 只看该作者

re:难道ABA相当于猛背单词,RDI相当于做...

难道ABA相当于猛背单词,RDI相当于做题,幼儿园和小学才是社会生活。
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129#
发表于 2009-9-29 02:35:06 | 只看该作者

re:这些都会说,但是从来不“泛化”到学校中。...

这些都会说,但是从来不“泛化”到学校中。

我小时候好像也一样,都会,但是不高兴说。 越强迫越逆反。 只对我喜欢的人说,可惜我那时候喜欢的人太少了。

为啥你家妞妞很像我小时候呢,身体不好也像,做事慢也像,不喜欢玩游戏也像。。。 不像大都。





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130#
 楼主| 发表于 2009-9-29 02:39:13 | 只看该作者

re:[QUOTE][b]下面引用由[u]mr...

下面引用由mrgood发表的内容:

难道ABA相当于猛背单词,RDI相当于做题,幼儿园和小学才是社会生活。


我说,亲爱的,你实在让我哭笑不得。
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131#
发表于 2009-9-29 02:40:17 | 只看该作者

re:表面上的礼貌是可以强记下来并应用。要求不...

表面上的礼貌是可以强记下来并应用。要求不高,也基本够用了。
但是,简单的一句招呼话,其实对孩子的理解能力要求是很高的。我认为远难于孩子说"我要吃xx”之类。打招呼一没有实物刺激,二要有情绪理解能力,三要互动。
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132#
发表于 2009-9-29 02:46:09 | 只看该作者

re:老虎娘, 转一个我觉得介绍NET还比较详...

老虎娘, 转一个我觉得介绍NET还比较详细的。

下面引用由老虎娘发表的内容:



amberbrown,差点把你这句给漏了。谢谢你的指点!NET和社交强化具体怎么做?再提点一下吧。



    Many people think of ABA as a child and teacher at a table, with instructional materials, a program book, and reinforcers spread out in front of them. In truth, this is more the case with structured teaching (usually DTT). However, ABA is more than DTT, more than structured teaching. Students must learn to learn in all environments, not first in one and then taught to generalize to others. Environmental contingencies (the way in which the environment is arranged, so to speak) has a lot to do with stimulus control. In order to generalize well and easily, generalization must be built into teaching from the beginning, and one way to do this is with Natural Environment Teaching (NET).

    NET is not complicated, although those coming from a purely structured teaching model may have difficulty adjusting at first. Luckily, students rarely do. In a nutshell, NET is teaching the student away from the table (the structured teaching setting). Good ABA programs generally involve both NET and structured teaching, since there are certain skills that are difficult to teach first in the natural environment, such as academics. In NET, the teacher has a curriculum in mind (what to teach) and makes it portable. Following the student's MOs/EOs initially, the teacher generates ways to teach the curriculum using those MOs/EOs and the materials in the natural environment. Here, the cliche that "The world is a classroom" really applies; learning is not dependent on a table or particular set of materials.

    One important variable in NET is instructional control. It is often easier to maintain instructional control at a table, but that is often accomplished through socially mediated negative reinforcement, or working to escape work. This is the student-teacher dynamic in which the student works for "breaks," or time away from the table. Generally, teachers can only get through 3 or 4 trials before needing to reinforce with a break; any more than that and they may start to "lose" the student. The reason for this is typically that the reinforcement value of learning is fairly low, and that the reinforcement value of escape from learning is much higher. These two factors are in constant flux; a balance of difficult tasks with easier tasks combined with the teaching procedures mentioned elsewhere on this site will keep the reinforcement value of learning high. Failure to use those teaching procedures will raise the reinforcement value of escape higher than that of learning and will result in the student's attempting to escape work through tantrums, aggression, or other undesired behavior. In this situation, students will tolerate a brief period of instruction that is over just before the value of escape becomes higher than that of learning. This is no way to teach, as it breaks up the rate of instruction and prevents fluency.

    A better way to establish instructional control is for teachers to first pair themselves with positive reinforcement (pairing). Pairing begins with noncontingent reinforcement, meaning that the student is first reinforced without having demands placed on him or her. Technically, the reinforcement is still contingent, as there must be an absence of undesired behavior (tantrums, aggression, SIB, etc.) for reinforcement to be delivered. Initially the only requirement for accessing reinforcement (besides the lack of undesirable behavior) is that the student take the reinforcers from the teacher. After this is happening consistently, the teacher must gradually fade in demands, slowly increasing the response requirement before reinforcement is delivered. Eventually the teacher will be able to present more trials of varied difficulty without lowering the reinforcement value of learning and increasing the value of escape. Pairing is slightly more involved than that, but essentially involves 3 elements which must be in close association with each other: 1) The student; 2) the teacher; and 3) the student's MOs/EOs and reinforcers. The teacher must capture and contrive MOs/EOs and identify strong reinforcers, with which she can pair herself, in order to become a reinforcer herself. Once this happens, everything associated with the teacher, especially learning itself, will become reinforcing. One tip: If the student's situation doesn't change for the worse (read: if the level of reinforcement doesn't decrease) when the teacher leaves the room, the teacher isn't pairing correctly. The teacher must be the conduit directly through which the student gains access to reinforcement. It is not enough to be in the room with the reinforcement while the student is contacting it; the teacher must be an integral part of it.

    To describe this in more scientific detail, when you pair yourself with positive reinforcement, what you're technically doing is conditioning yourself as a reinforcer. Some stimuli start out as reinforcers, meaning that they strengthen behavior, even though a person has never had any contact or experience with them before. These stimuli, such as sleep, food, drink, sex, etc., are called unconditioned reinforcers. There are also unconditioned punishers, such as pain, that weaken behavior even without prior contact or experience. When stimuli are unconditioned, we don't have to be taught to "like" or "dislike" them; they're tied to some biological need and are therefore classified right out of the box. While these unconditioned stimuli are very important, most of the reinforcers and punishers we traffic in aren't unconditioned; they are conditioned. This means that the stimuli, through being paired with other reinforcers or punishers, take on some of their reinforcing or punishing properties. We gather conditioned reinforcers and punishers through our experience and history with the environment. Since we all experience the world differently, the complete list of our reinforcers and punishers is sort of our experiential thumbprint, different from everyone else's. In other words, we learn through experience to "like" or "dislike" things, which means that they will either increase or decrease certain behaviors when presented as consequences for those behaviors.

    Given all that, when you're attempting to pair yourself with positive reinforcement, or condition yourself as a reinforcer, you're likely going to start by associating yourself with a range of unconditioned and conditioned reinforcers. So you'll identify foods, drinks, toys, games, videos, computer games, physical/social reinforcers, etc., to associate yourself with. The more directly you are involved in providing your child with access to reinforcement, the more you will be paired up with that reinforcement. The child should always have to go through you to get what he wants; otherwise, he's just accessing reinforcement while you're in the room, which isn't enough. You have to be a key part of the reinforcement: Handing the food, drink, or toy to the child, playing the game with him, helping him bounce, pushing him on the swing, turning on the TV or computer, etc. If he doesn't have less fun when you leave the room than he does when you're there, you're not pairing, because the access to reinforcement must not really involve or be dependent on you. You have to make the reinforcement happen, not just be there while it's happening. It's the difference between chipping in on a lottery ticket with a friend and picking half the winning numbers versus going with your friend when she picks the numbers and buys herself a winning ticket. For more info, see Yoon, So-Young, and Bennett, Gina M., Effects of a Stimulus-Stimulus Pairing Procedure on Conditioning Vocal Sounds as Reinforcers, Analysis of Verbal Behavior, Vol. 17

    Pairing must take place for instructional control to be gained in both natural and structured environments. However, it is especially important in NET because the student is moving from environment to environment with the teacher. If the teacher doesn't have instructional control, it will be very difficult to teach in the natural environment. Once pairing has been done, however, the teaching should start. It's very difficult to give blanket descriptions of NET, since it's so dependent on creativity and motivation, so here are some examples of how to teach in the natural environment:

° Manding: The student wants to go on a swing outside. The teacher gets a mand for "Swing" (at whatever level the student can mand) and then begins chaining in mands. The teacher tells the student to get his "socks" and "shoes," each of which he must mand for, as well as perhaps manding for "help" to get them on. Then the teacher can block the door to the backyard, prompting the student to mand, "Move" or "Excuse me." Once she moves, the student can mand to "Open" the door, then again for the "swing," to "get up," get a "push," go "faster," "higher," etc. This will squeeze several mands out of just one. However, be careful not to chain in too many mands too soon, or the student's MO/EO may be lost.

° Receptive ID and Tacting Colors: The student enjoys playing with playdoh. The teacher begins to make favorite shapes and then allows the student to mand for what to make. The teacher can ask the student to give her the "yellow" playdoh to make Big Bird, the "blue" playdoh to make Blue from Blue's Clues, the orange playdoh to make Chuckie's hair (from Rugrats), etc. The colors become motivating themselves because they're used to make the characters that the student loves look more accurate and realistic. You can also build in tacts of the colors and characters, echoics of the characters' catchphrases, etc.

° Intraverbal Fill-ins: The student loves music, so the teacher sing some songs while playing and leaves out key words from the songs, i.e., "The wheels on the..." or "Head, shoulders, knees, and..." Gross motor imitation of the movements that go with the songs, receptive ID and tacting of body parts in the songs, and echoics can also be worked in.

    The important elements of NET are to keep in mind are what you want to teach, to identify MOs/EOs that will create strong reinforcers, to be creative in figuring out how to teach the target skills using those MOs/EOs, and to have fun. When the curricular targets are functional and made to be motivating through good teaching, much can be accomplished in the natural environment.
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133#
发表于 2009-9-29 02:47:44 | 只看该作者

re:“也许一打招呼, 收到回应才知道打招呼原...

“也许一打招呼, 收到回应才知道打招呼原来也可以是一件愉悦的事呢。燕原, 我不是跟你抬杠啊,我只是觉得如果一直是被迫学, 孩子是很难做到泛化的, 如果孩子自己会泛化,说明可以被动变主动。习惯成自然,这个自然也许就是发自内心也说不定”。

教程中有泛化的过程:先是学会看人,然后学会被喊名字时看人,这是基础,然后是别人说你好时看着别人回答你好( 先是面对面的回答你好,然后当志愿孩子走过来时回答你好,然后当志愿孩子从门进屋子时回答你好,然后,当志愿孩子在屋子里各个不同地点时回答你好,)然后是建立目光接触后率先起头说你好,也重复上述各个地点的步骤。
我认为,对于处理信号缓慢的孩子,这种练习就像别人在睡觉我去跑800米一样,也是熟能生巧。也许孩子就是想说,但是掌握不好机会,一般别人给你问好,等3秒钟你不回答别人就转移目标去做别的事了,我们的孩子可能要反应10秒钟,才意识到,才说,可是已经无效了。这个多恼人啊。没有愉悦的回馈,时间长了,就干脆闭嘴了。另外要赢得别人的目光了再说你好,我女儿不知道说了多少次你好是冲着别人的侧脸说的。因为都是我提示的, 是非自然的。 在自然环境中,瞬息万变,很难抓住别人的目光而且女儿又刚好愿意张金口说你好的。
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134#
发表于 2009-9-29 02:48:40 | 只看该作者

re:[QUOTE][b]下面引用由[u]am...

下面引用由amberbrown101发表的内容:

也许一打招呼, 收到回应才知道打招呼原来也可以是一件愉悦的事呢。燕原, 我不是跟你抬杠啊,我只是觉得如果一直是被迫学, 孩子是很难做到泛化的, 如果孩子自己会泛化,说明可以被动变主动。习惯成自然,这个...


我最喜欢讨论了,这个不算抬杠。 平时吧,就找不到那么多NT愿意讨论问题的,他们都喜欢求同,我找人说话都没地方找,嘻嘻。

如果觉得打招呼是愉悦的事,那么说明孩子不是社会性不好,而是不会表达,是输入输出部分不通畅。  我觉得现在很多被诊断的小孩子是这样的,他们不是本身社会性不好,也不是没感情。

现在回来社会性真的不好的孩子这里,比如典型的AS,因为有专家说AS是比ZB更典型的社会性缺失。  打招呼对于AS来说,是一件愉悦的事么? 我打了这么多年招呼了,打招呼本身不可能带来愉悦,带来愉悦的是打招呼的对象,那个人,在我记忆中,我们原来有过愉悦的经历,现在希望还有更多。

所以,对我本人来说,社交技巧我也学,为的是给NT对方带来愉悦,而不是我自己。 我的愉悦,是从这种讨论中来的,比如现在和你讨论问题,我就特别的高兴,虽然我们不见面,也没进行过啥打招呼等等的流程,但是我们交流了思想,认识了问题,特别的好。



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135#
发表于 2009-9-29 02:57:44 | 只看该作者

re:[QUOTE][b]下面引用由[u]燕原...

下面引用由燕原发表的内容:


我最喜欢讨论了,这个不算抬杠。 平时吧,就找不到那么多NT愿意讨论问题的,他们都喜欢求同,我找人说话都没地方找,嘻嘻。

如果觉得打招呼是愉悦的事,那么说明孩子不是社会性不好,而是不会表达,是...




拿floortime老格的话说, 就没有社会性不好的, 人都是有affect的, 不然表扬拥抱赞同什么的永远也做不了强化物。

另外你不算AS吧, 最多是生物多样性中的一种了, 不然,不知有多少家长会高兴自己有AS的孩子了。
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136#
发表于 2009-9-29 03:01:58 | 只看该作者

re:妞妞的问题,我觉得一个是反应速度,一个是...

妞妞的问题,我觉得一个是反应速度,一个是她不高兴说,因为她自己没有感受到愉悦。

如果其他人就单单回应说:你好。 妞妞不感到愉悦,这个训练就建立不起来。一定需要其他人给她带来愉悦的感受,而且确认她真的高兴了,比如夸张的拥抱,(秋爸爸的糖豆),她才能接受这个过程。

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137#
 楼主| 发表于 2009-9-29 05:31:53 | 只看该作者

re:虎娘难为我,不是我玩玄的,应该说教情感,...

虎娘难为我,不是我玩玄的,应该说教情感,如同说教认知一样。
不过,我历来在多个帖子里,都反对提倡“教情感”“教思维方式”“教理解力”这样的说法。隔壁思维方式的帖子,我后来不好意思跟下去了。因为“思维方式”的说法玄,“理解力”和“情感”也是这样。像那思维方式,大家说来说去,容易说叉了,说的不是一个概念。“认知”这个词还好,大家基本上能说到一块儿去,我很少用,但还敢用,一用大家就会想到教颜色教形状命名分类啥的。

---我觉得,用“教”这个字不大确切,应该是“引导”好一些。自闭症的孩子知道情感吗?知道,但他只知道自己的情感。他有思维吗?有,但他没法把几个方面整合成一个有用的思维,比如说,正确的处理一件事情。他有理解力吗?当然有,但他理解世界的方式是错误的,比如说,你教他叫爸爸,叫了爸爸给糖吃,他就理解成,爸爸的意思就是给糖吃,见谁都叫爸爸了。


按ABA论,我觉得把那些都可以定义为一类行为的总称,一类特定刺激下的特定反应的总称。
那些,不可能抽象地单教,甚至抽象地单说。以前我曾为此调侃过:“你说你爱我,那你得为我砍人啊”,瞧,不惜砍人的爱情显得深,要是能替我砍了我的情敌,自己入狱却成全了心上人的好事,那情感可以说伟大了。可见,离开具体行为,那些都就没法描述,也没法干预。
好吧,举个我实践过的、最最简单的“教情感”的实例:我一进家门,就热情地招呼宝宝贝贝,引他们到门口来,连亲带抱,还给糖吃。开始做到能看我、走过来都不容易,可久了,他们听我上楼,就会乐呵呵地冲过来,秋妈妈回来就没这待遇,她恨恨地说“孩子怎么和我没感情啊?”

---哎!我怎么觉得他们更多的是冲你的糖来的而不是你来的?如果,他们见到你就帮你拿包,说:“爸爸辛苦了!”那是“情感”,要是他们见到你就翻你的包,满世界找糖,根本不看你一眼,那也叫“情感”?“情感”不能拿糖“教”吧?
另外,偷偷说一句,你那个“砍人”的例子,我看着有点晕菜,这是几角恋爱啊?数了半天没数明白,不过,甭管几角了,这种妞儿还是离远点好,一个砍了,一个入狱了,她还能自己享好事,啥路数啊这是?
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138#
发表于 2009-9-29 05:59:33 | 只看该作者

re:小忘老师,您引用的原文最好加个引号,或者...

小忘老师,您引用的原文最好加个引号,或者换个字体,否则咋一看容易让人混淆(尤其没有从头看起的话)。
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139#
 楼主| 发表于 2009-9-29 06:06:50 | 只看该作者

re:[QUOTE][b]下面引用由[u]Sp...

下面引用由SpringSunshine发表的内容:

小忘老师,您引用的原文最好加个引号,或者换个字体,否则咋一看容易让人混淆(尤其没有从头看起的话)。


多谢提醒,昨天刚从红楼里学的加颜色,我这算用上了。
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140#
发表于 2009-9-29 07:57:23 | 只看该作者

re:[QUOTE][B]下面引用由[U]燕原...

下面引用由[U]燕原[/U]发表的内容:


典型的AS,因为有专家说AS是比ZB更典型的社会性缺失。  打招呼对于AS来说,是一件愉悦的事么? 我打了这么多年招呼了,打招呼本身不可能带来愉悦,带来愉悦的是打招呼的对象,那个人,在我记忆中,我们原来有过愉悦的经历,现在希望还有更多。

所以,对我本人来说,社交技巧我也学,为的是给NT对方带来愉悦,而不是我自己。 我的愉悦,是从这种讨论中来的,比如现在和你讨论问题,我就特别的高兴,虽然我们不见面,也没进行过啥打招呼等等的流程,但是我们交流了思想,认识了问题,特别的好。

...


我其实不是冷漠的人,也不是清高的人,但我比较少打招呼,打招呼也大多不够热情,不像人家招呼得“笑靥如花”,因此吃了不少暗亏,人家总觉得自己端架子。其实跟我接触多了,或真正同事的,都说我性情中人,根本不分长幼高低,都是一视同仁的。但如果遇到跟自己亲切、愉快的人,我相信我打招呼的时候,一定是亲切、愉快的,因为我也一样,那个人让我唤起亲切、愉快的记忆。所以,前两天,因为方老师说我不是AS,绝对不是AS,我还申辩说:对于对脾气的人、对于感兴趣的事,我是非常愉悦的,乐在其中的;相反的,我就会郁闷,就会打不起精神或笨拙愚傻的。
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