【新方法？！】VB（不是维生素） vs 传统ABA

dc07

新到以琳，把最近在一个maillist(VerbalBehavior@yahoogroups.com)上看到的一场笔战转贴给大家.
传统ABA就是坛上各位打交道的那种，VB指语言行为分析（Verbal Behavior)，是近十多年来在美国渐渐兴起的新型ABA,有取代传统之势，有兴趣的朋友可GOOGLE一下。

辩方A: Robert Schramm, MA, BCBA（board certified behavior analyst),德国人，5年前到美国学习VB,去年出了一本关于vb的书。

辩方B:Ben Wolfson,MS/PhD,BCBA,很有见地的一个人，发了很多好贴，文末提及他要离开后，顿时挽留声一片。

我的立场：VB

辩论时间：2007年2月25日

关键词：ABLLS，非常好的评估纲要。
        NET，natural enviromental teaching
        PECS,picture exchange communication system
        Regina,另一位很好的论坛作者
        Punk，另一位作者
阅读提示：大学英语3.5级以上，德国人的英语稍微怪一点。

[U]A[/U]
Punk wrote
"
It remains a complete mystery as to why VB is somehow attached to your
excellent suggestions because it just sounds like good ABA to me!"

Really? are you really that surprised?

I have been reading you and Ben since you joined a few months ago about how there is no difference to the VB approach that is not just good ABA. I agree with you, VB is just good ABA. The problem is I think you guys are giving way too much credit to the "non-VB" ABA community.

Although I am not specifically talking about your personal teaching choices, I am referring to what is generally passing as good ABA in about 90% of the "non-VB" ABA programs out there.

I know there are a lot of people on this list who have been in well respected and highly used traditional ABA programs for many years before switching to VB. I would like to see a show of email hands from these parents as to whether or not they would agree that everything I and others have attributed to the VB approach to ABA is really happening out there in the "other than VB" ABA world.

Folks, could you please chime in with your experiences?

Before discovering VB were your ABA providers really avoiding the use of escape extinction? Were they teaching 80% or more in the natural environment or was it closer to 80% at the table? Were they generalizing as they taught or were they removing skills from their natural EO and teaching them with the hopes of generalizing them later. Were they really focused on using positive rienforcement instead of allowing reinforcement be the time the child is allowed to "go play." Were they taking probe data leaving the therapists free to really connect with the children during teaching or were they taking trial by trial data that often hindering the development of any relationship building outside of teacher/student. Were they more likely to use sign language as a bridge to spoken language or PECS as a substitute for it with the hope that language would develop? Did they teach to all the functions of a word with the Behavioral Classification of language or were they only focused
on receptive ad expressive language? Was there a long involved pairing element in teaching or was teaching more about compliance training? Were they mixing and varying demands or was learning more about mass trials? Was manding really taught first or was receptive langauge taught first with expressive language left to be developed as the receptive improved? Were you as parents trained to be the best teachers of your child or were you given a stable of therapists who were supposed to do the work leaving you to just be a parent (not really knowing what to do when you were alone with your child)? Was your child really being taught with errorless learning and were they using transfer and correction procedures or were they using least to most prompting and/or a no no prompt method? Were they really teaching to and beyond the ABLLS assessement or were they going through a list of skills from the back of "A Work in Progress" A Catherine Maurice book or their take on the Life
Institute's program guide etc.?

Now I imagine that if there was no difference between the VB approach to ABA and traditional ABA then everyone on this list who has done both would be able to say so. In fact, I would imagine there would be little reason for anyone to ever say that they switched to Verbal Behavior at all. But if before discovering VB the families found that most of the items listed above were not a part of their program then I would hope that they share that with us so that you might get a larger perspective and maybe consider admitting that there might be a meaningful difference worth labelling. Not between VB and good ABA (because VB is good ABA) but between VB and what is currently passing for good ABA in many if not most traditional ABA programs.

But, I suppose, we will see what the folks here have to say. Any parents out there now using VB that used to be in traditional ABA programs want to jump in on this topic?

Robert

PS I have a great respect for Jim Cautilli but I have to disagree with his paper calling VB The same wine in a new bottle.

The new bottle analogy to me is off base. It isn't just a different bottle, the bottle is better and the ingredients mixed in different proportions. I would liken it more to Same TV shows but now in HDTV with Tivo. It is finer tuned, easier to perform, more comprehensive and user friendly and I would argue that in most cases a much preferred way to watch the tube.

(Assuming of course that the person designing the program has a clue as to what they are doing).

____________ _________ ___
Robert Schramm, MA, BCBA
www.lulu.com/ knospe-aba
www.knospe-aba. com


[U]B[/U]
Hello Robert,
As usual, found your poste well worth considering.
Wanted to respond to a few points. Your main premise
is that the particular techniques you've outlined
below are simply a far better way to teach, more child
friendly, (with better outcomes?), etc.

NET vs at the table. Clearly more fun for the child.
But how much here and how much there, again depends on
the child. I can assure you that my kids run to get
the table when I walk in the door. But you're right: I
work w/0-3 and I'm not sure that working w/10-17
wouldn't be far better in the NET.
Generalizing as they went or removing and hoping to
do so later. The former. As you know, when Lovaas
started the biggest complaint was the lack of
generalization. In the BCBA course generalization is
highly stressed and repeated in course after course.
Do they take trial by trial data? I don't. Never
have. Please don't tell my boss. Not sure most others
do if it intereferes w/the child's learning and/or
momentum.
Were they really using pos reinforcement and not
"go play?" Yes. Who doesn't?
Were they really taking probe data? Uh, I do believe
you've got me here. The better ones do. Unfort, there
are many who do not take this serious enough and waste
the child's time "teaching" things he can already do.
Sign or PECS? I know VB is big on signs and I know
their reasons for it and I also far prefer it to PECS.
But you know that's been a major contention for a long
time. VB decided to go w/sign. Good. But we've no
research to show which is better or if sign leads to
greater langauge gains. Bottom line, try it: if it
works w/your child, great.
All functions of a word or only receptive and
expressive language? All. We just don't call it
"mands" and "tacts," but I see no difference
otherwise.
Long involved pairing or compliance training? Both.
Pairing is also not a VB invention, just the name for
it.
Mixing trials or massed trials? In the beginning,
it's mostly massed. Once a repertoire is built, mixed.
I don't see why that's necessarily a bad thing.
Parents involved to be best teachers? Well, not in
my neighborhoods but in NY, as I've said, parent
involvement in learning is mandatory. By law and must
be recorded. I am a bit curious why you think that ABA
people are against involving the parents. Has never
been my experience.
Errorless learning. Again, not an invention of VB.
Of course we use it. But we also use l to m prompts
and vice versa. Whatever works. My boss, thankfully,
is very much against a no-no prompt procedure. I've
never used it.
Were they using the ABLLs? Wasn't around when I
started. Are they using it now? Sure. So are speech
therapists w/no VB or ABA background, etc. But do we
use the books you wrote here also? Yes. And for good
reason.
If someone doesn't choose me to work w/their child
because I'm just ABA and they want someone who is VB,
ok, I lose that child. Whether the child loses depends
on how good the other therapist is, not whether he
uses VB or ABA.
This is going to be my farewell address folks. I
don't have time for the board anymore. I thank all of
you for your tremendous help. If anyone wants to write
me directly: wolfbenson@yahoo. com. Regina-I don't want
to lose you....write me! Ben



[em14]

binfeng2000

关于类似的口诛笔伐很多,但是无论那种办法,能学精了都会是一件法宝.我个人认为怕的到是见异思迁,不停地去换那些别人嘴里的"最新法宝",那会象狗熊掰棒子,掰一个丢一个.