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自闭症,ABA和RDI

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1#
发表于 2009-9-28 23:30:15 | 显示全部楼层

re:发现真的要成为qbb的铁杆粉丝了。我自己...

发现真的要成为qbb的铁杆粉丝了。我自己是说不出个道道来的,不过我绝对相信RDI和ABA就好像某种维生素和抗生素, 前者没啥副作用,保健功能全面但又没啥具体数据证实,没病用了也可以锦上添花,后者听起来作用范围很局限,还可能对身体不利,但真病了用它针对性的治疗那效果是前者不能比的。ABA千锤百炼,在有影响的刊物上出的文章没有上万也有上千了,也有很多人反复证实。ABA原理是啥我不知道,但我同意ABA教学的过程就是一个强迫与人交流的过程, 它训练的不仅仅是认知,而是通过在训练认知的过程中提高共同注意力,通过外界的强化激化自身的强化机制从而变被动为主动。

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2#
发表于 2009-9-28 23:34:04 | 显示全部楼层

re:先是给糖, 就看你相不相信慢慢的不用给糖...

先是给糖, 就看你相不相信慢慢的不用给糖了,亲你一下他也很高兴。

下面引用由老虎娘发表的内容:

秋爸爸总是抛出很多迷面,却不给迷底。

ABA怎么教情感呢?我觉得最不灵的就是这个,难道说亲我一下给你一颗糖吃?

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3#
发表于 2009-9-28 23:46:36 | 显示全部楼层

re:对, 很多孩子不是不具备学习(归纳, 总...

对, 很多孩子不是不具备学习(归纳, 总结 。。。)能力,而是对环境不感兴趣从而失去了社交体验, 失去了磨练和提升能力的机会。早期强迫孩子体验应该对保持孩子能力的提升有帮助, 很多时候能力上来了, 兴趣也跟着起来了。好比打游戏, 你不会可能根本不想碰,等会了就不一样了。  


下面引用由随爱而飞发表的内容:

自闭症的核心问题是学习能力这话想想还真是有道理,学习的能力不单单只表现在认知上,其实孩子从小到大,每时每刻都在动用学习的能力从周围的环境和经历的事情中去吸取经验来运用到自己的生活当中去,这种能力对正常...

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4#
发表于 2009-9-28 23:58:19 | 显示全部楼层

re:他本来就对你有情感, 无所谓教不教了。...

他本来就对你有情感, 无所谓教不教了。 ABA对不同阶段的小孩,教的东西和强化物都不一样,并不是永远DTT。你们孩子的程度NET和社交强化就很好。

下面引用由老虎娘发表的内容:



但是,当我每天陪他玩游戏,让他哈哈大笑,让他很快乐的时候,我不用给糖他吃,他也会来亲我,或者捧着我的脸深情的看着我叫“妈妈”,情感的连接一个月就建立起来了。——PCI推崇者留。

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5#
发表于 2009-9-29 00:06:37 | 显示全部楼层

re:同意这个, 但RDI经常把自己和ABA对...

同意这个, 但RDI经常把自己和ABA对立起来。其实是RDI能教的ABA都能教, ABA能教的RDI不一定。



下面引用由忘了我是谁发表的内容:

说实在的,我不想把ABA和RDI划出个道道儿来,楚河汉界,泾渭分明。我做不到这一点。我一直强调,RDI和ABA说到底本质是一样的,都是我形容的“掰小块儿”教学,只是侧重点不一样而已。我一直把RDI叫情...

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6#
发表于 2009-9-29 00:19:46 | 显示全部楼层

re:那个思维方式的帖子我也跟了, 同意“一类...

那个思维方式的帖子我也跟了, 同意“一类特定刺激下的特定反应的总称”的说法。 老外到中国显得思维方式特独特,特"傻帽"吧,说到底是受到的刺激(体验)不同。呆中国三五年就给他同化了,当然是越小效果越好。


下面引用由秋爸爸发表的内容:

虎娘难为我,不是我玩玄的,应该说教情感,如同说教认知一样。
不过,我历来在多个帖子里,都反对提倡“教情感”“教思维方式”“教理解力”这样的说法。隔壁思维方式的帖子,我后来不好意思跟下去了。因为“思维...

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7#
发表于 2009-9-29 02:03:10 | 显示全部楼层

re:燕原, 大都看来程度很高, 年级也大一些...

燕原, 大都看来程度很高, 年级也大一些,所以你有这些担忧,相信也是大多数小孩子的家长包括我在内将来的会担心的。研究表明自闭谱系的孩子depression的比例比正常人高,家长都不希望孩子痛苦。但我觉得这个走回来,家长能教的实在不多。这已经走出了自闭的范畴,所以有非正常方面(同性恋, 个太矮, 口吃,有残疾,等)但智力又不受损的孩子或多或少都会经历,痛苦不可避免,孩子能不能悟出来还看他自己。家长能做的也就是精神上支持,为孩子营造对异常宽容度大的环境。所谓自闭训练,主要还是教孩子走出去。

下面引用由燕原发表的内容:

同意虎娘。

但是这个走回来,ABA就不管用了。

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8#
发表于 2009-9-29 02:16:15 | 显示全部楼层

re:这是一个parenting的问题了, 相...

这是一个parenting的问题了, 相信大多数家长要求的融入是达到可被接纳的最低要求,如果现今还不为社会接纳, 那一些表面上的措施是需要的。 当然家长还可以着手影响环境。

下面引用由燕原发表的内容:

所以说,家长的态度特别重要。

强迫孩子融入的,特别是强迫孩子面子上要融入的,是很危险的想法,特别是对高功能和AS的孩子来说。

社交技能ABA,在大多数人手里运作起来,就是这个面子上融入的结...

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9#
发表于 2009-9-29 02:27:58 | 显示全部楼层

re:也许一打招呼, 收到回应才知道打招呼原来...

也许一打招呼, 收到回应才知道打招呼原来也可以是一件愉悦的事呢。燕原, 我不是跟你抬杠啊,我只是觉得如果一直是被迫学, 孩子是很难做到泛化的, 如果孩子自己会泛化,说明可以被动变主动。习惯成自然,这个自然也许就是发自内心也说不定。

下面引用由燕原发表的内容:

所谓自闭训练,是机构,专家研究的事情。 很少专家像家长一样,会去关心孩子的综合成长和心理健康。

社交技能ABA,在中国,就很有可能发展为某种吃钱的机构。 不能说这种训练没用,就是因为这种训练太有...

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10#
发表于 2009-9-29 02:46:09 | 显示全部楼层

re:老虎娘, 转一个我觉得介绍NET还比较详...

老虎娘, 转一个我觉得介绍NET还比较详细的。

下面引用由老虎娘发表的内容:



amberbrown,差点把你这句给漏了。谢谢你的指点!NET和社交强化具体怎么做?再提点一下吧。



    Many people think of ABA as a child and teacher at a table, with instructional materials, a program book, and reinforcers spread out in front of them. In truth, this is more the case with structured teaching (usually DTT). However, ABA is more than DTT, more than structured teaching. Students must learn to learn in all environments, not first in one and then taught to generalize to others. Environmental contingencies (the way in which the environment is arranged, so to speak) has a lot to do with stimulus control. In order to generalize well and easily, generalization must be built into teaching from the beginning, and one way to do this is with Natural Environment Teaching (NET).

    NET is not complicated, although those coming from a purely structured teaching model may have difficulty adjusting at first. Luckily, students rarely do. In a nutshell, NET is teaching the student away from the table (the structured teaching setting). Good ABA programs generally involve both NET and structured teaching, since there are certain skills that are difficult to teach first in the natural environment, such as academics. In NET, the teacher has a curriculum in mind (what to teach) and makes it portable. Following the student's MOs/EOs initially, the teacher generates ways to teach the curriculum using those MOs/EOs and the materials in the natural environment. Here, the cliche that "The world is a classroom" really applies; learning is not dependent on a table or particular set of materials.

    One important variable in NET is instructional control. It is often easier to maintain instructional control at a table, but that is often accomplished through socially mediated negative reinforcement, or working to escape work. This is the student-teacher dynamic in which the student works for "breaks," or time away from the table. Generally, teachers can only get through 3 or 4 trials before needing to reinforce with a break; any more than that and they may start to "lose" the student. The reason for this is typically that the reinforcement value of learning is fairly low, and that the reinforcement value of escape from learning is much higher. These two factors are in constant flux; a balance of difficult tasks with easier tasks combined with the teaching procedures mentioned elsewhere on this site will keep the reinforcement value of learning high. Failure to use those teaching procedures will raise the reinforcement value of escape higher than that of learning and will result in the student's attempting to escape work through tantrums, aggression, or other undesired behavior. In this situation, students will tolerate a brief period of instruction that is over just before the value of escape becomes higher than that of learning. This is no way to teach, as it breaks up the rate of instruction and prevents fluency.

    A better way to establish instructional control is for teachers to first pair themselves with positive reinforcement (pairing). Pairing begins with noncontingent reinforcement, meaning that the student is first reinforced without having demands placed on him or her. Technically, the reinforcement is still contingent, as there must be an absence of undesired behavior (tantrums, aggression, SIB, etc.) for reinforcement to be delivered. Initially the only requirement for accessing reinforcement (besides the lack of undesirable behavior) is that the student take the reinforcers from the teacher. After this is happening consistently, the teacher must gradually fade in demands, slowly increasing the response requirement before reinforcement is delivered. Eventually the teacher will be able to present more trials of varied difficulty without lowering the reinforcement value of learning and increasing the value of escape. Pairing is slightly more involved than that, but essentially involves 3 elements which must be in close association with each other: 1) The student; 2) the teacher; and 3) the student's MOs/EOs and reinforcers. The teacher must capture and contrive MOs/EOs and identify strong reinforcers, with which she can pair herself, in order to become a reinforcer herself. Once this happens, everything associated with the teacher, especially learning itself, will become reinforcing. One tip: If the student's situation doesn't change for the worse (read: if the level of reinforcement doesn't decrease) when the teacher leaves the room, the teacher isn't pairing correctly. The teacher must be the conduit directly through which the student gains access to reinforcement. It is not enough to be in the room with the reinforcement while the student is contacting it; the teacher must be an integral part of it.

    To describe this in more scientific detail, when you pair yourself with positive reinforcement, what you're technically doing is conditioning yourself as a reinforcer. Some stimuli start out as reinforcers, meaning that they strengthen behavior, even though a person has never had any contact or experience with them before. These stimuli, such as sleep, food, drink, sex, etc., are called unconditioned reinforcers. There are also unconditioned punishers, such as pain, that weaken behavior even without prior contact or experience. When stimuli are unconditioned, we don't have to be taught to "like" or "dislike" them; they're tied to some biological need and are therefore classified right out of the box. While these unconditioned stimuli are very important, most of the reinforcers and punishers we traffic in aren't unconditioned; they are conditioned. This means that the stimuli, through being paired with other reinforcers or punishers, take on some of their reinforcing or punishing properties. We gather conditioned reinforcers and punishers through our experience and history with the environment. Since we all experience the world differently, the complete list of our reinforcers and punishers is sort of our experiential thumbprint, different from everyone else's. In other words, we learn through experience to "like" or "dislike" things, which means that they will either increase or decrease certain behaviors when presented as consequences for those behaviors.

    Given all that, when you're attempting to pair yourself with positive reinforcement, or condition yourself as a reinforcer, you're likely going to start by associating yourself with a range of unconditioned and conditioned reinforcers. So you'll identify foods, drinks, toys, games, videos, computer games, physical/social reinforcers, etc., to associate yourself with. The more directly you are involved in providing your child with access to reinforcement, the more you will be paired up with that reinforcement. The child should always have to go through you to get what he wants; otherwise, he's just accessing reinforcement while you're in the room, which isn't enough. You have to be a key part of the reinforcement: Handing the food, drink, or toy to the child, playing the game with him, helping him bounce, pushing him on the swing, turning on the TV or computer, etc. If he doesn't have less fun when you leave the room than he does when you're there, you're not pairing, because the access to reinforcement must not really involve or be dependent on you. You have to make the reinforcement happen, not just be there while it's happening. It's the difference between chipping in on a lottery ticket with a friend and picking half the winning numbers versus going with your friend when she picks the numbers and buys herself a winning ticket. For more info, see Yoon, So-Young, and Bennett, Gina M., Effects of a Stimulus-Stimulus Pairing Procedure on Conditioning Vocal Sounds as Reinforcers, Analysis of Verbal Behavior, Vol. 17

    Pairing must take place for instructional control to be gained in both natural and structured environments. However, it is especially important in NET because the student is moving from environment to environment with the teacher. If the teacher doesn't have instructional control, it will be very difficult to teach in the natural environment. Once pairing has been done, however, the teaching should start. It's very difficult to give blanket descriptions of NET, since it's so dependent on creativity and motivation, so here are some examples of how to teach in the natural environment:

° Manding: The student wants to go on a swing outside. The teacher gets a mand for "Swing" (at whatever level the student can mand) and then begins chaining in mands. The teacher tells the student to get his "socks" and "shoes," each of which he must mand for, as well as perhaps manding for "help" to get them on. Then the teacher can block the door to the backyard, prompting the student to mand, "Move" or "Excuse me." Once she moves, the student can mand to "Open" the door, then again for the "swing," to "get up," get a "push," go "faster," "higher," etc. This will squeeze several mands out of just one. However, be careful not to chain in too many mands too soon, or the student's MO/EO may be lost.

° Receptive ID and Tacting Colors: The student enjoys playing with playdoh. The teacher begins to make favorite shapes and then allows the student to mand for what to make. The teacher can ask the student to give her the "yellow" playdoh to make Big Bird, the "blue" playdoh to make Blue from Blue's Clues, the orange playdoh to make Chuckie's hair (from Rugrats), etc. The colors become motivating themselves because they're used to make the characters that the student loves look more accurate and realistic. You can also build in tacts of the colors and characters, echoics of the characters' catchphrases, etc.

° Intraverbal Fill-ins: The student loves music, so the teacher sing some songs while playing and leaves out key words from the songs, i.e., "The wheels on the..." or "Head, shoulders, knees, and..." Gross motor imitation of the movements that go with the songs, receptive ID and tacting of body parts in the songs, and echoics can also be worked in.

    The important elements of NET are to keep in mind are what you want to teach, to identify MOs/EOs that will create strong reinforcers, to be creative in figuring out how to teach the target skills using those MOs/EOs, and to have fun. When the curricular targets are functional and made to be motivating through good teaching, much can be accomplished in the natural environment.
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11#
发表于 2009-9-29 02:57:44 | 显示全部楼层

re:[QUOTE][b]下面引用由[u]燕原...

下面引用由燕原发表的内容:


我最喜欢讨论了,这个不算抬杠。 平时吧,就找不到那么多NT愿意讨论问题的,他们都喜欢求同,我找人说话都没地方找,嘻嘻。

如果觉得打招呼是愉悦的事,那么说明孩子不是社会性不好,而是不会表达,是...




拿floortime老格的话说, 就没有社会性不好的, 人都是有affect的, 不然表扬拥抱赞同什么的永远也做不了强化物。

另外你不算AS吧, 最多是生物多样性中的一种了, 不然,不知有多少家长会高兴自己有AS的孩子了。
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12#
发表于 2009-9-30 00:31:06 | 显示全部楼层

re:[QUOTE][b]下面引用由[u]老虎...

下面引用由老虎娘发表的内容:

今天从头重看这个帖子,小忘开篇的这一句让我想到一个问题:

“世界上没有哪个病症比自闭症更让人一眼看上去根本摸不着头脑了。自闭症像一把大伞,在这把大伞下,有终身都学不会说话的,也有能上美国常春藤...



前几天带儿子去我们这边的儿童医院自闭症中心看医生,等待的时候看到一个小册子介绍关于AS的研究统计, 在英国,85%以上的AS没工作, 无法独立生活。 我想说的是,不是说社交比较弱,或不会察言观色就是AS了。这个坦子里很多爸爸妈妈说自己是AS,其实你想想,有不错的工作,有幸福的家庭,如果AS这些都能做到,那有什么好干预的呢?你可以说那我其实很痛苦阿,要我说其实人人都有痛苦的方面,我上学时800米跑不下来还天天做噩梦呢, 总不能说体育差点就说是有运动障碍吧。跑题了, 我想说的是, 盖茨和爱因斯坦是AS那才是见鬼了呢。
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13#
发表于 2009-9-30 00:38:05 | 显示全部楼层

re:[QUOTE][b]下面引用由[u]kw...

下面引用由kwenma2发表的内容:


前面楼里没有禁语,就说了一句老邓的话“实践是检验真理的唯一标准。”.特此声明!



昨天看帖,有一页不让我看, 说发现禁语“ 沁 。。 圆。。 春。。”。 啥时候这都是禁语了。
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14#
发表于 2009-9-30 00:43:10 | 显示全部楼层

re:[QUOTE][b]下面引用由[u]老虎...

下面引用由老虎娘发表的内容:

还是AMBER拉回正题。

我也听说过一个统计数据,AS干预后有50%能融入社会。到底哪个正确呢?


主要是我打字速度太慢, 机子没中文输入, 用inputking,偏偏我拼音剧烂, 往往一个子要s,sh,n,ng试个遍才找到, 回个帖吧, 别人都翻了好几页了,我容易吗??
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15#
发表于 2009-9-30 00:47:54 | 显示全部楼层

re:[QUOTE][b]下面引用由[u]云鹤...

下面引用由云鹤发表的内容:



A:凡事不要絕對,爲什麽蓋和愛就不能是AS吶?其實,天意高難問。居心也不一定可測。一切順其自然,不要硬下結論。人類一思考,上帝就發笑。自己太快做判斷,過後就後悔,不是馬上也是即將,不是今天也...



你说得没错, 绝对的词出口最容易以后自己扇自己耳光了。 其实事实是。。。。。。































我也是AS。[EM07]
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